Olusegun Obasanjo, took some time
off his busy schedule to speak to a
PREMIUM TIMES team at his
Abeokuta home about some of the
issues he wrote about in his book,
"My Watch".
The retired army general – in
between joking with his
interviewers, and threatening to
walk out of the room – spoke at
length about the reasons behind
some of the key decisions he took
while in office, his relationship with
some key political figures, and the
Halliburton bribery scandal.
Below is excerpt of the first part of
the interview.
PT: Thank you sir for granting us this
opportunity to talk about your book.
Some people say it is selling like hot
cake, I don't know if it is true but
that's what people say. How has it
been? What has been the financial
reward from there?
Obasanjo: The book was not written
for financial reward. If it was
written for financial reward, now
that…what do you call him…
Kashamu had done the stupid things
he did, I would have sued him for
damages and I would have got
damages. But that's not what the
book was written for. The book was
written for my experience, my
understanding, my knowledge, and
what you may call wisdom as a
result of all these, to put it for others
to be able to learn or acquire
knowledge. That's one. Two, it was
also written to set the record right.
One of the things that people don't
know, people that I call arm chair
presidents is that they don't know
what goes in before decisions are
made or what the man making
decisions, what leads him to making
decisions.
Take for instance the decision on
privatising all refineries. I explained
that what I met were refineries that
were not working, refineries that
were given to an amateur for
repairs, for maintenance, what they
call turn around maintenance to the
company of Emeka Offor – Chrome
Group. Where has Emeka Offor
maintained refineries before? Where has he?
That's what we met. So the refineries were not
working. I called Shell. I said 'come and help us,
just run the refinery.' Shell was frank with me.
It said that 'we make our money from upstream,
downstream is more of a service. Two, your
refineries are small. Port Harcourt is 60,000
barrels a day. Refineries now go 300,000 barrels
a day. Three, your refineries have not been
maintained well. Four, we don't want to go into
the corruption that is entailed in all these'. I said
'ok, come and help me run it'. They refused. Now
when I then saw people who agreed to take 51
percent equity in two of the refineries; they did
not promise to pay, they paid 750 million, I was
dancing and I said 'look, this is God sent.' My
successor came (and) they cancelled it and paid
them the money back. Those refineries today –
you won't get them because they've become
scrap.
PT: They recently said that they are working again…
Obasanjo: Who made them work? (laughs)
PT: You mentioned Emeka Offor. There were lots of
stories about the refineries you met, how you
handled it. But you never recovered anything from
Emeka Offor.
Obasanjo: What can you recover? A man who was
paid upfront. He had people. He got some police…
people were there. And like they have said to you
now, look, if it works for a week, that's all you
get. And Emeka Offor, after I left he became
friends with every government that has come.
Now he's not only into refinery and oil and all
that, he's now also in energy.
PT: Something came out of your book. You said that
before you were elected, that the feeling and
perception was that only a northerner could be
elected in Nigeria. How did you feel breaking that
myth, because you called it a myth in your book?
Obasanjo: It's a myth. It's a myth that….well,
before my election we have had, since
independence, three or four elections. We had
election in 1959 that was conducted by the
British, NPC won. We were still in the days of
parliamentary. We had election in 1964 that was
conducted by ourselves. It was a coalition of NPC
and NCNC but the head of the government was
Tafawa Balewa. We had election again in 1979,
Shagari won. We had again in 1983, again
Shagari won. And then we had the June 12…
PT: (Cuts in) I was thinking that (1993) was when the
myth was broken.
Obasanjo: Election which result has not been
declared, you cannot talk of… It doesn't matter
what you may see but until the election result is
formally declared, it could be anything.
PT: So you think that period was a very momentous
period in Nigeria's history?
Obasanjo: I think it was good for Nigeria. It was
one of the great strides that Nigeria made. Just as
I believe that Jonathan winning election in 2011
was also a great stride for us or 2015, now that
the incumbent was defeated by the opposition.
These are landmarks, or if you like, reference
points in our advancement in democracy.
PT: In the Volume 2 of your book, you wrote
extensively about the role God used you to play in
enthroning Yar'Adua and Jonathan. You also
admitted later – extensive analysis – how both
leaders performed poorly. There are those who
believe that you owe Nigerians an apology for leading
them to enthrone non-performing leaders.
Obasanjo: (Cuts in) You are absolutely wrong
Now you voted for them. I didn't just take them
and put them there. And they went through a
process. Don't you know that? Do you know or
don't you know that they went through a process?
Do you know or don't you know? Answer (slaps
interviewer's thigh vigorously).
PT: I know.
Obasanjo: Okay. They went through a process.
And that is the process that the constitution and
the electoral system allow.
PT: In other words, are you saying that all of us are
guilty?
Obasanjo: Of course. If you want to put that,
everybody who voted for them is guilty.
PT: But you know people believed you. People
believed you. When you speak….
Obasanjo: (Cuts in) When I speak, I am not an
oracle. And I'm not infallible. But on this
particular one I have said to all of you, you can
get a job for a man you cannot do it for him.
Even your own son if you put him in a job….
There is a good saying that if you want to know
how anybody will perform, put him in position of
power or put money into his hand.
PT: So maybe the thing to say is that you didn't do
enough due diligence…
Obasanjo: (Cuts in) No. You are wrong. There's
no due diligence that you can do to allow a
man…. You cannot know the quality of a gift
from the wrapping. You don't know that, you will
never go anywhere (slaps interviewer's thigh).
That is absolute wrong.
PT: That point has to be made…
Obasanjo: (Cuts in) But I've always made it. I
keep on making it. In my book, I said look,
Gowon sent me to the war front and because of
my performance there, my popularity started to
rise…
PT: (Cuts in) Because he knew you had the capacity,
he checked you very well…
Obasanjo: (Cuts in) No no no. Adekunle was there
before me. So he didn't know Adekunle had the
capacity? Answer me. In that same Division,
Adekunle was there. And if Adekunle had
remained there, there's the possibility that
Nigeria could have lost the war. So will you blame
him for that?
PT: We won't. But you know a lot of people believe
that between 1999 and 2007 when you left was a time
that a lot changed in Nigeria for the better. And
people just keep saying that you destroyed everything
that you put in place with the successors you
enthroned.
Obasanjo: But take Ngozi (Okonjo-Iweala), who
worked for me. And who worked competently for
me. Because I know Ngozi's weaknesses, but I
know her strong points. Her strong point is
technical competence. But Ngozi needs to be led
and to be supervised. Now will you comment on
Ngozi who worked for me as the same Ngozi who
worked for Jonathan? Will you? But it's the same
person.
PT: At what point do you think she derailed if I may
use that word?
Obasanjo: No.
PT: Is it at the point that you changed her – because
you removed her as finance minister. Was it at that
point that she began to derail?
Obasanjo: She derailed because….when Jonathan
even said he wanted her, I said 'I hope you can
manage her.' And Ngozi herself sent me a text
(and) I told her times have changed.
PT: But why did you change her? She was managing
the economy very well for you. Why did you now
remove her suddenly?
Obasanjo: I wrote it in that my book.
PT: It didn't come out clearly enough?
Obasanjo:It must have come out. Maybe you
haven't read the book very well. I said I've
touched reform. I've touched almost everywhere
except Ministry of Education and Ministry of
Foreign Affairs. So one day, I was in my office
and the Head of Service, Yayale (Ahmed), came
in. He said 'look, you are looking not happy, what
is the matter?' I said I am worried about two
ministries and the ministers who can do the work
I wanted to be done there in these two ministries
are already doing good work where they are. And
he said 'talk let me see.' I said education and
foreign affairs. And he said 'who are the
ministers that you think can do the job.' I said
Oby (Ezekwesili), Ngozi, and El-Rufai. He said
'what is Oby doing for you now?' I said Oby is
doing Solid Minerals. He said 'Sir, in all sincerity,
I know you don't like to rank ministries, but will
you say Ministry of Solid Minerals is as
important as Ministry of Education.' I said yes I
don't rank ministries, they are all important. He
said, 'Can't you take any of these three to do
education and then get somebody else to do solid
minerals?' So I took Oby there. Now in the
Ministry of Finance we had got debt relief, so I
could afford to take Ngozi to Foreign Affairs.
That's all. And then she had Nenadi (Usman) who
was the minister of state. She's not a buffoon.
And then, which is also part of her weakness, she
came to me and said, look, since it's Ministry of
Foreign Affairs, she will like to take International
Finance along with it. I said talk to your sister
with whom you are working and I don't see
anything wrong with that provided you work out
a relationship. But she didn't accord Nenadi the
recognition and the consideration that was
necessary. I then said the ministry of
International finance should go back to Finance
and that happened. She said she couldn't act. She
put in a letter of resignation. And she had done
that before, and before she could come and get
people to come and beg, I announced acceptance
(of her resignation).
PT: She once resigned before and she took it back?
Obasanjo: Yes.
PT: Which means you were always having
disagreements…
Obasanjo: No no no. I know her character.
PT: So why did she resign the first time?
Obasanjo: She just felt if she cannot have her
way, with me…. If I am the one in charge, then it
has to be what I see as what is the best interest of
the nation.
PT: So even when she resigned, if you didn't
announce the acceptance she would have come back.
So all efforts to make her come back didn't work?
Obasanjo: No no no. Because I had announced.
PT: In 1999, IBB supported you to become president…
Obasanjo: (Cuts in) I said that.
PT: Yes, you said that. And many even said he helped
fund your campaign at the time.
Obasanjo: No.
PT: You didn't say that. You said he supported you.
But in your book, you spoke of how in 2011, you
chose to support Jonathan…..because you called a
South West PDP meeting where Jonathan was
endorsed, even when IBB had also indicated interest
in running. Why did you prefer to act that way?
Obasanjo: I wrote in my book that this is the
opportunity we have for a minority. And I've
said that. I've explained that. I've said that times
without number. And we have scaled that hurdle.
Nobody in Nigeria today can say 'oh, because I'm
a minority I cannot get there.'
PT: So was he not angry with you that 'look, I backed
you in 1999?'
Obasanjo: That's not…What nonsense is that?
Because you backed me I must back you? It
doesn't matter who you are? And I don't have
consideration for Nigeria? It's consideration that
you backed me? No, if that is the way you think
then you are short-sighted and myopic and
stupid. And put that one. No Nigerian should
think that way. You backed me? And if you don't
back me others will back me. So everybody who
backed me that time, I must now come and say,
look, when you want anything, any office…. I
don't act like that.
PT: It means that you were able to break the jinx of
the problem of minority.
Obasanjo: It is necessary that we deal with that.
PT: You said something very shocking in your book –
that the presidency instructed EFCC to remove a vital
document in Gbenga Daniel's file in their custody as
a way of getting the former governor off their hook.
Obasanjo: No. The president knows about it but it
was his chief of staff who gave the instruction.
PT: With the consent of the then president?
Obasanjo: The president knows about it.
PT: Now listen to what you wrote in page 81 of your
book. "To fight corruption, the leader needs absolute
transparency, no skeleton in the cupboard, clean
hands, a clear mind, fear of God, and absolute
honesty and integrity, submission to scrupulous
investigation. Search and enquiries are also good for
a leader who wants to lead by example." Great
message for any leader all over the world! This is
prescriptive. Now what do you say to those who keep
linking you with corruption during your own tenure,
especially the unresolved Halliburton scam for which
some of your aides were arrested?
Obasanjo: Look, anybody can make any
allegation. Go and read the EFCC report on me.
I'm the only leader who has left office who has
had, I said they should carry out clinical… did
you see that in the book? And if you haven't seen
that in the book then you haven't read the book.
So what else do you want? (Ndudi) Elumelu
carried out a report. Did you see the report of the
House and the action of the House? What more
do you want? So it doesn't matter the allegation
you make, that's entirely up to you. Halliburton,
Bodunde (one of his aides) has been taken to
court twice and the court has dismissed the case.
What more do you want? The latest was the one
Jonathan did. Just before he left, he took Bodunde
back to court. He was discharged and the case
dismissed the first time. The second time
Jonathan took him to court and he was
discharged again. So what do you want?
PT: You may not know about it, you may not have a
hand in it, but it does appear, especially from
reports from US investigators that some officials of
your administration perhaps took bribe from
Halliburton.
Obasanjo: No no no! I don't deny that. But not
me! I don't deny their reports about Halliburton
but not me. I don't even know what Halliburton
was doing here. So what's your problem? And
EFCC looked into it. You read the report of EFCC
bordering on Halliburton.
PT: The only gap is that people are wondering why
you didn't take steps to bring those officials of your
regime to book.
Obasanjo: (Cuts in) There's no gap. You can make
any allegation. Now EFCC – you can count
number of people who are taken to court. I don't
take anybody to court, Mojeed. And don't annoy
me. Now you have the system that takes them to
court. I don't take anybody to court. Because if I
have to be the one to say 'take this one to court,'
that will be witch- hunting. That's not my job. My
job is – set up the system and if anybody in that
system is not performing then look for somebody
to perform. So it doesn't matter what allegation.
If you read that report of EFCC, one man was
hired, and he went out with all sorts of spurious
allegations and EFCC took it one by one. Even
Ribadu told me that when he gave that report,
because he didn't give the report to me…I said,
look, carry out a critical investigation. I thought
that was good. Then when he wrote his report, he
gave it to Yar'Adua. And he said Yar'Adua asked
him, 'You can't find anything at all?' He brought
Metropolitan Police here and he said whenever
they are doing investigation in the past, when
they get somewhere they will say 'oh, yes, some
people are interested.' But this is the first time
they had free hand to carry out investigation. So
what more do you want? And what I put there is
what I believe in. Has anybody working under
me said to you that 'oh, he asked me to take
bribe?
To be Continued…
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